>No, LN is still always cheaper (modulo on-chain HTLC resolution). In Ark even if everyone is exiting and splitting the cost (which isn’t quite how it works but let’s assume), the cost to exit is one-two transactions per wallet (average of one tree transaction plus one transaction to resolve their vTXO. You could do the resolution later so maybe it’s one but depends a lot on the specific construction). In LN it’s always only one. I don't understand this. First, AFAIK unilateral exit in DryjaPoon always has 2 txs (otherwise you wouldn't have punishment), not one. Secondly, I'm assuming an economic push towards cooperating users just evicting non cooperative ones, so it's not even always 2 tx per "wallet", but potentially even as low as 2*logN/N txs, in optimistic cases where users just migrate to another ark where the current one is unresponsive. I know this is not how it works now, but I'm speaking about the potential evolution where high fees may push the system.

There should be a recording! Try website of Bitcoin Historico conference.

Best compliment but also eldritch horror in the same sentence. <3

Sorry for the delay. Nostr still sucks. :) > Worth pointing out that Ark doesn’t materially “scale” without adding payment channels on top (ie Timeout Trees). Until that point, you’re really stuck with the statechain model, which has a highly-trusted third party, as you note. I'd say you have the statechain model *until* you get the confirmation, then the model is closer to a DryjaPoon LSP than a statechain, until the expiration time. But yes, I agree the Ark model will be really interesting with channels on top, they are working on it since a while and it makes sense: https://blog.arklabs.xyz/bitcoin-virtual-channels/ > Huh? Ark is strictly more expensive to unilaterally exit than classic lightning. I guess I'm playing with the word "unilateral" a bit here. I think that, realistically, the relevant thing is the exit against the coordinator, not against all the other users. The total cost of an unilateral exit in Ark is higher, but you can conceptually split it among more people in most failure modes. In a classic DryjaPoon, you share an UTxO among 2 users. That means that in best case scenarios (cooperative) the cost for opening/closing/resplicing would be X/2. In uncooperative scenarios, the cost for the exiting user is X. In an Ark with N users (ASP included), opening/closing/closing has a cost of about 10X, but that would be shared among N in cooperative cases, N-n in case n (most importantly including the ASP) are uncooperative. > f course as mentioned above if you want scalable, trustless Ark you need payment channels anyway, so it’s strictly more complicated! Good point.